Peyotero (dime a dozen user):
A bit of history on this recording from one of the many thousands of people who attended this gig!!
This was recorded about 4 rows back on a cheap ITT old type flat mono cassette recorder using the internal mic which had been extracted from the recorder and soldered onto a couple of meters of cable, the mic was then attached to a piece of dowelling with insulation tape to form a handle, so that the recorder could be placed on the floor whilst holding the mic – A real hi-tech setup!!!
The master tape no longer exists but there was at least one more track played – a second version of ‘No Fun’
The second gig in July was also recorded by a guy I used to work with on a different machine, (I wanted to enjoy the gig without the hassle of a recorder & the ITT stayed at home) but this time the recording was unlistenable and I’m sure he over taped it, I’d love to be proved wrong on that, but I haven’t seen him now for over 30 years.
It is unlikely that anything better than a 4th gen is in circulation, the history of the tape is: Master > approximately four 1st gen copies for people who were at the gig, one of the people who had one of these 1st gens then copied it for someone else and it is the resulting 2nd gen tape which has provided the circulating copies
Incidentally the references to aggression at this gig are entirely wrong, this was before punk really broke, and the audience was mainly hippies and fans of the 60’s punk bands, if you listen carefully you can hear shouts for bands such as the Standells & Question Mark & the Mysterions in the background. Stories of aggression may well relate to the second gig in July which had an entirely different atmosphere to the June gig.
Egg_crisis:
I just checked my tape and it includes both versions of No Fun. Someone said versions of this gig have been on Dime before. Did the other versions include it? If they did there's maybe not much point me uploading it, but if they didn't then I will. Quality of my tape is poor so maybe it'd be better for me to just upload that one track rather than the entire gig as a "downgrade"! I'll see what to do once this has downloaded and I'm able to properly compare both.
(Mine is a poor recording of a rather scratchy bootleg vinyl. Surely a recording from the vinyl is circulating already??)
I had a proper listen to my cassette... It's not the same taper as the version in this torrent!! That's pretty amazing if there were 2 tapers at such a low attendance gig (but would explain why some versions have an incomplete 1st song and a missing last song - if one taper didn't manage to capture those parts).
The most obvious difference was the start of No Lip - mine has someone clapping fairly close to the mic during the first few seconds, not present in this torrents version. After the clapping ends you can hear someone whistle, the whistle also present in this torrent version, but more distant in mine.
My tape is from vinyl. Pistolslover, how many of the songs are on "I swear I was there", If it's got the missing No Fun then maybe it's made from a pristine copy of the vinyl version, mine sounds scratched to hell unfortunately. (and if it has No Lip compare the beginning to see if it has the claps like I described).
My tape consists of ... tracks 1-6 (side A of the vinyl) / tracks 7-10 from an absolutely horrible sounding cassette with inconsistant speed / tracks 11-14 (side B of the vinyl). If I uploaded this it'd have to be just the vinyl part and not the middle 4 songs which have been added in from a tape source and aren't part of the vinyl. However the vinyl is terribly scratched, I might just throw it onto megaupload and post the link in this thread and people can grab it if they want it. (Track 1 is complete as well).
Starboy, thanks a million for this!
peyotero:
I must admit on first playing this I thought different source, however after some careful listening I have come to the conclusion that the differences are purely down to eq, if you open up the vinyl version of No Lip in an Audio editor, & hard limit the intro that clap fades into the background, a bit more work & the recording starts to come to life.
The clincher however for me comes right at the end of the version here. Compare the very faint whispered muttering at the very end of Problems on here (5.35 -5.38) with the same bit on the vinyl rip. I know who that is & he’s only about 50cm from the mic, it would be impossible for that to have been picked up by any other recorder in that room
I think that what we have here is a fairly low gen copy of the tape (the vinyl version is very poor, clear but dull & lifeless) which has been eq’d quite heavily but is now quite an enjoyable listen.
lammah:
This is really interesting.
I have an alternate version from one Mark B which he got back in June/July 1989. This is a tape source, no LP crackles at all.
It is missing the 45 seconds audience sounds at the start of yours, but does have the 10s that the other version misses fades in.
The first revelation... there *are* in fact multiple audience sources of this show.
Here's how to tell. Craigie*'s version as well as both 'Aggression Through Repression' and 'I Swear I Was There' boots all have a volume rise about 1:01-1:03 into 'Did You Know Wrong' which is missing from your version (as well as mine). Also, both the start of 'No Lip' and later on 'No Fun' have near-field clapping *not* on the first version. There are other differences, but these are probably the most notable and verifiable.
Source #2 I believe runs out after 'No Fun', as Mark's tape has a cut point, followed by poorer-quality dub of the remaining tracks...which has a similar (though not identical) missing start to Substitute as well as the 2nd 'No Fun' which cuts after 5:23. As received from Mark, it ran a semitone slow, so I've speed adjusted it, but haven't made any further adjustments.
By the way, "I Swear I Was There" [Goodtimes Music (GTMCD-001)] is probably the best one to hear, though it's just a digitization of a needle drop and suffers from bad inner groove distortion for the encore tracks, so even better would be its antecedent LP source. Craigie's seems to have an underwater warbling effect reminiscent of excessive digital noise reduction, but may be overly hissy otherwise.
crox:
People
I've compared sources and it seemes all uploads are from the same recording.
I compared male voices saying faint "uh-h? + who?" and loud "Dum" after Problems
1. ISwearIWasThere(Goodtimes Music - Liberated Bootleg)
peyotero recording - complete copy except fade in on did you no Wrong (silver pressing source)
Fingerprint: "uh-h? + who?" at 5:32 and DUM at 5:41
quote from peyotero referring to upload 2: "The master tape no longer exists but there was at least one more track played – a second version of ‘No Fun.
2. Manchester Arndale Market Bootleg Stall
peyotero recording - incomplete copy without No Fun #2 and complete except fade in on did you no Wrong.
Fingerprint: "uh-h? + who?" at 5:35 and DUM at 5:41 (DUM is not available as copy ends here)
3. peyotero recording - speed corrected (Mark B version) complete with NO Fade in on did you no Wrong but No Fun #2 cut at the end
Fingerprint: "uh-h? + who?" at 5:35 and DUM at 0:03 on next track with encore cheer
If there is at some point on one of these version a mix of sources I havent found it yet but to me;
1) There is only one recording
2) it was complete- only some copies are not.
3) all versions are comparible in quality
4) The Megaupload speed corrected (lammah) (?) version has complete Did You No wrong. Others have fade in. The Megaupload version has cropped No Fun #2 at the end.
lammah:
Guys, listen to the end of 'Did You No Wrong':
Using the 'I Swear That I Was There' boot version as reference (same as 'Aggression Thru Repression' and craigie*'s):
* indistinct clapping, no 'heyyys' (see below)
* talking about 0:09 into No Lip
On the MarkB-sourced tape (Megaupload speed-corrected) I put up:
* distinct claps in left channel
* a couple voices going 'heyyyy' right when the song finishes.
* no talking about 0:09 into No Lip
This matches up to the version that Egg_Crisis put up...
Don't think this can simply be put down to EQ differences. [Update: or maybe they can!]
Also, the Megaupload version has what I presume is a c60 flip point and misses the interstitial between Satellite and No Feelings.
Peyotero said:
Thanks for posting this possible alternative source tape, it is however without any doubt from my recording, the sound is much closer to how the original recording sounded before equalization.
The complete gig was recorded, everything was there including the missing intro it seems that over the years incomplete tapes have been circulated then patched together to make up the complete show.
Lammah:
I think the equalization helps to make it more listenable, so it's good along those lines, but for forensic purposes and lineage tracking, dealing with flat transfers makes things much easier since, as we've seen, it's easy run into disagreements involving sourcing...
And while not out of the question, I'd like to think that you would have noticed someone else recording this. Frankly, I find it amazing the taper of such an oft-cited historic recording is participating here. The last time I ran into a Sex Pistols taper (the lowgen of Baton Rouge '79 that I posted, I got a much more hostile reaction)
> The complete gig was recorded, everything was there including the missing intro > seems that over the years incomplete tapes have been circulated then patched
> together to make up the complete show.
Yup.
The very start, before Did You Know Wrong, is so far only on a scratchy vinyl pressing which has the same EQ profile as the MarkB-sourced version. There's also cuts between tracks on MarkB which are probably a result of multiple c60/c90 flip points. Craigie's* version may be best for the 2nd 'No Fun', which is cut on MarkB as well, and is horribly distorted due to inner groove distortion on 'I Swear I Was There' needledrop boot CD, which otherwise gives the best 'listening experience of the lot.
Another piece of information:
I was told by MarkB that his copy originated from a trader named Dave Lees (2 generations up), wouldn't think the name means anything to anybody here besides craigie*...and I bet his copy is at least two generations or more removed from the circulating 2nd gen the taper credits all extant copies being sourced from.
Would love to see if anybody has more versions, or anything to add.
Peyotero:
I can't remember where the flip was now but it would be around the 40 minute mark, I always used C90 cassettes and a decent make TDK, Sony, BASF etc & almost invariably C90's, C60 was too short & I never trusted C120's.
Regarding the amount of disposable income a gig goer would have then, I would say probably much the same as the average 20 year old with a reasonable job & living at home has today, ie using decent tape wasn't going to break the bank.
Regarding tape lifespan I agree the cheap makes were awful but some of the others have survived quite well, I recently transferred recordings of Ted Nugent at Reading Festival 76 & a couple of Johnny Thunders gigs from Warrington & Wigan in 1977 done on the same ITT recorder as this gig using TDK and they still sound as good or should that be bad! as the day I recorded them, others of similar age I've tried to play & ended up with oxide coated tape heads within a minute.
Egg_crisis said:
Also it may sound a funny question, but would you know whether the master was a decent make of tape such as TDK, or some unknown cheap brand. The reason I ask is it's long been a belief of mine that if the masters did exist for many of the shows of this age they'd be unlistenable anyway, and it's only because there's 3rd/4th gen copies available that they've survived as half-decent copies.
The oldest cassettes I have are from around 1980/81 and the cheap unknown brand ones have deteriorated very badly, Sony/Scotch has fared better although still deteriorated in places, and the TDK's have deteriorated the least of all. Given the amount of disposable income a gig-goer might have had back then, and given that you'd need a new tape for each gig, the likelihood of saving money by buying a cheap brand of tape seems quite high, especially without the foresight we have now that the cheaper tapes didn't last as long as the better brands.
Peyotero:
Doesn't it seem likely that the person who recorded a gig such as this had a more than casual interest in music at the time & could still be around today. I'm not going to try & prove my authenticity here but will fill in a gap on one of Johnny's asides that I haven't seen commented on. During New York he appears to have a go at Patti Smith 'Does anyone like Patti Smith etc... this was actually directed at a girl in the audience sat close to us who had been posing with a copy of Horses all night in a look at me me I'm really hip manner.
I can't understand why anyone should get hostile over the sharing of a tape, surely sharing is preservation, especially in todays lossless formats , just share for everyone to enjoy, and if you lose something, there's always someone able to offer you a replacement!